When was the moment you realized the grind wasn’t sustainable? In Episode 1 of Direct Well-Being Podcast, Dr. Anders Apgar sits down with longtime friend and Emergency Medicine leader Dr. Daren Girard. From “negative millionaire” residency debt and brutal early-career shifts to finding breathing room through admin roles and rebuilding connections. This conversation is for every physician asking: how do I make this career last?
It hits early, sometimes just two years out of residency, you’re no longer a trainee on paper, but the schedule still feels like one. Five shifts in a row. Nights. Weekends. Young kids at home. A mortgage and six-figure student loans that make you feel like a “negative millionaire.”
In this first full episode of Direct Well-Being, Dr. Anders Apgar sits with Dr. Daren Girard, as they unpack the early-career breaking point, the reality of shift work versus family life, and the practical steps that helped Daren reclaim sustainability, including a strategic move into administrative leadership that reduced clinical burden without sacrificing income. Together they explore why high-performing physicians often hide their stress, the power of building real connections beyond the bedside, the importance of remembering your “why,” and how to show up for your family even when the schedule fights against it.
This episode is honest, hopeful, and filled with actionable wisdom for residents, early-career physicians feeling the squeeze, and seasoned clinicians looking for renewed purpose.
Episode Highlights:
About the Show:
Direct Well-Being is hosted by Dr. Anders Apgar, MD, FACOG, M.S., An Ob/Gyn physician leader and nationally recognized voice in clinician well-being. The show is a trusted, peer-driven space for honest conversations about what actually supports physicians, beyond resilience training and surface-level wellness.
Each week, Dr. Apgar sits down with physician leaders, partner organizations, and frontline clinicians to talk about the real drivers of distress: financial stress, mental and emotional health, family dynamics, and the systems in which physicians practice. Conversations are evidence-aligned, research-informed, and grounded in lived clinical experience, never promotional, always physician-first.
Produced as a Direct Self Care production in partnership with the Doctor Podcast Network, the show draws on insight from the Well-Being Index, Champions of Wellness, Tend Health, and the broader Direct ecosystem to move listeners from awareness to agency.
About the Guest:
Dr. Daren Girard is an emergency physician and Chief of Emergency Medicine at Kent Hospital in Warwick, Rhode Island. A former Wesleyan University wrestler and longtime friend/roommate of host Dr. Anders Apgar, he brings over 25 years of clinical experience. Early in his career (just two years out of residency) he transitioned into an assistant director role to reduce clinical shifts, gain administrative responsibilities, and achieve better work-life balance while raising a young family. He remains deeply involved in mentoring residents and supporting physician wellness.
About the Host:
Anders Apgar, MD, FACOG, M.S., is a physician leader dedicated to transforming clinician well-being. As host of the Direct Well-Being Podcast, he leads honest conversations about the real drivers of distress : financial stress, mental health, family dynamics, and broken systems, for physicians and the organizations that support them.
A trusted voice in health care, Dr. Apgar blends lived clinical experience with evidence-aligned insights. He’s part of the Direct Ecosystem (Direct Self Care, Direct Wealth Care, Direct Practice Care), partnering with organizations like Tend Health, the Well-Being Index, and Champions of Wellness to move the conversation from awareness to agency.
Connect with Dr. Anders Apgar
Websites:
directwellbeingpodcast.com , dwbpodcast.com
Emails:
[00:00:00]
Welcome to Direct Well-Being Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Anders Apgar. It's July 1st. Congratulations to all our residents starting out. Big day for everybody, big day that we all remember. With me today is Dr. Daren Gerard, who is an emergency physician and the chief of emergency medicine at Kent Hospital in Warwick, Rhode Island.
He's also a heck of a wrestler from Wesleyan University. Darren and I go back about 400 years- ... shall we say, when we both- ... looked a lot different but thanks for being with us, Darren. Appreciate you being here.
Of course. Anything for my old friend- ... and
roommate . appreciate. Yeah, roommates, right?
We're starting a conversation about wellbeing and really about what is sustainable, what does wellbeing look like and we're gonna focus a lot on financial wellbeing, but today's episode really is about how did we get here in the first place. So setting the stage, Darren, go back even to medical school if you want to but when you started residency, what did you think medicine was gonna look like or feel like, and then how did [00:01:00] it land for you initially?
Yeah, I think in residency you get a pretty good idea of what your day-to-day is gonna be, I think they do a good job of that. Like, you get good exposure to all the different specialties, and you kinda see where you fit, what kinda works for you. So I think I had a pretty good, assessment of what it was gonna be like, you know?
Yeah.
Pretty good understanding and appreciation. my first job out of residency the problem was in a, community hospital with an academic affiliation. And so there were residents there . There was no ED residents, so there were other residents in the hospital.
And so, I started to feel pretty early like, I just felt like I was a resident. I was still a resident. Like, I was working a resident schedule and I felt like when am I gonna get some relief? Like we were in college together, and you go through med school, and you go through your residency, and then like you're 10, 12 years in at this point, and, I was just like I'm still working my ass off.
And that was the thing. I felt like I was still [00:02:00] doing a residency schedule. emergency medicine is you know, we work the different shifts, and you work weekends and, nights and stuff, and then you end up getting some time off, you know?
and that's nice, andI was appreciating my time off. you know, in the middle of the week everybody else is working, and, you know, I can, do my thing and, enjoy a day off. But they were just like too many shifts, batched together.
I'd have, five shifts in a row, and couple days off, and I was like, this just feels too much." I'm just tired of this. I need some time back."
Yeah. You know, walking back just a little bit, when we grew up there was those television shows
I think you might be old enough to maybe remember St. Elsewhere, and then of course probably through medical school or residency, we're talking about ER and stuff.
Yeah.
extremely popular shows. And well done, to some degree. those had commercial breaks, and they had drama- ... that was unrealistic and things like that.
But when you get into the grind like that, you feel like it's not sustainable at that point.
Yeah. that's exactly what it was. That's what I felt. I was like, "This is just too [00:03:00] much. I need to dial it back." And so fortunately, and we were talking about this earlier, a friend of minetook the role of a director in a smaller community hospital, and he said, you know, wanted to bring me over and give me some administrative, role as assistant director and, that would cut some of my clinical time.
You know, buy down the clinical time and then- ... of course you gotta do stuff in the office and go to meetings, and I was like, "You know what? let me give that a try." And That's what really helped me. And it was early on, so, getting that buy down and, sitting in meetings and doing emails and spreadsheets and that kind of stuff.
it's work. I mean, you're in an office. you gotta show up. But it's not the same thing as running around on a clinical shift, and it was just easier for me to, partition my time and get days, kinda like low impact days,
yeah.
And you're
still doing important stuff and making connections and, working with other people in the hospital and, you know, trying to do QI projects and trying to, move the department to a better place. So, you know, there's still rewarding work to be done, but it's [00:04:00] just not as stressful-
How far out, of residency were you in your professional career ... Did you have a moment? It sounds like you were a couple years out, but did you have that moment? This is a multifaceted question, but how far out were you when you said, "I can't do this anymore"?
It was only two years. I mean, I switched the jobs after two years, so it was probably within that first year that I was just like, you know, having those objections and, you know, wanting something else .
When we know your undergraduate university wasn't cheap, right? We know medical school wasn't cheap,
There was no scholarships on Division III wrestling team either, so
I would've got one, but yeah.
You would've. I
wouldn't have, but- ,
you would've got it first. you had bills to pay that... maybe trying to have a family, maybe trying to, you know, have a vacation here and there. when you get to that point, how scary is that?
My wife and I jokeso after I got out of residency, I had a young family.
I had a two-year-old and a baby, couple six-month-old. you know, graduated residency, I got, two young kids, and a mortgage and my loans. And my wife and I were joking, and we're [00:05:00] negative millionaires. Like I owe a million bucks on basically my loans and my, house.
So I was like, I wasn't gonna not work, you know? I was just trying to find a way to get it, to do that and just take some heat off. You know, I just felt like I was just doing too much.
Yeah.
Doing too much clinical and ... You know, I had a young family, right?
And so like, you know, I'm working five shifts, 5:00 PM to 2:00 AM or whatever, and it's like I gotta sleep until 10:00, and you know, it just wasn't working for me,
right. Absolutely. So you got those forces. and let's be honest, you said it relatively quickly, but a negative millionaire is...
that's two million in the hole if you wanna be a millionaire someday. You know, ... that's not chump change.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's legit. we have the, spreadsheets to prove it.
and you said your shift was 5P to 2A?
You know, they would change. that was just one of the examples.
you go in at 5:00, right? and you said you had young kids. Yeah. So kids are probably going to sleep 5:00, 6:00, 7:00. You know, super young kids, maybe they're sleeping part of the night, [00:06:00] half the night, but you're getting home 2:00 AM and they're probably zonked, and you're missing...
How much of their lives did it feel like?
So my wife wasn't working. She's been back to work for 13, 14 years, but she wasn't working at the time, and I feel like that was huge for us. But I feel like I had a good amount of time with the kids and you know, I brought it up earlier, like, for emergency medicine, so I'll have days off.
So they didn't care, if it was the weekend or a Tuesday, right? So- They didn't know the difference. They didn't have a schedule. So I felt like I had a good amount of time, you know, with the kids, growing up. You do miss stuff, right? There's just weekends, some weekends you're gonna miss something.
But then on the flip side, I did a ton of stuff, like going into their schools, like, and elementary schools you know, doing stuff that other parents couldn't do 'cause they have a regular work week, -
...
Schedule. So, , it's a give and take.
So-
Yep ...
I would miss some of the weekend stuff, but then I would be available [00:07:00] for other, things, When you were choosing your career back in medical school, or maybe even earlier than that when you were thinking about what you were gonna do professionally as a physician, did that play a role?
Did emergency medicine suit you better for that?
Yeah, I think so. I think I saw that early on, like, as a way to kinda manage your schedule a little bit. You can't get away from it, right? you have to do the nights and the weekends, but there's a way to kinda manage it too, you know?
So it's a little bit more your own.
as an ER physician, do you have a sense that when you're on, you're on, you know, when you're hot, you're hot, when you're not, you can actually shut it off, or do you still take stuff home?
So you know, I graduated residency in, '02, so you know, it's legit 25 years of practice. So I feel like I can do that now. Back, that wasn't automatic, you know, you'd worry about stuff or whatever. it took me years, I think, but you get there.
I wanna go back to, a really critical aspect I think of what everybody's feeling as they start to lose their sense of [00:08:00] wellbeing, but there's that crack in the armor. And that crack, that time, that one to two years out professionally was that the crack in the foundation for medicine for you?
Yeah, I mean, it was like I just realized that it was unsustainable I was doing. You know, I couldn't keep the, hours. And it wasn't like an aggressive schedule. Like, emergency medicine
it's usually, 1,400 to 1,500, maybe 1,600 hours per year, and it's like, 14, 15, 16 shifts a month. and i'm not saying... You get downtime. You get downtime for sure. But it was just having it all just, three, four shifts in a row, and it was just a lot.
I was like, I feel like a resident still." Mm. Like, When am I gonna get a little breathing room? but, you know, to your point, like, you still got a mortgage and you can't leave the field.
It's not easy.
There's a tremendous disincentive to do that. So I just had to find a way to make it work.
as the chief now, some of our people are doing a [00:09:00] 40%, thing, you know? So that's their little breathing room.
But, you know, they get 80% or whatever. Like, they get some time but, it's at the expense to salary, right? So.
Right.
But if, you know, people make that decision and that trade-off,
yeah. there sounds like there's two prongs to that, right? you have to have the financial solvency to be able to take that change in your pay- Mm-hmm.
Right ... for one. Number two, and, it would be great if everybody could work at about 40, 50, 60% whatever full-time might sound like. And look, let's give credit. 16 shifts in a month, there's only 20 work days in a month, so you were busting pretty good too at full speed, right?
Yeah. And I was doing the same thing in OBGYN. You know, OBGYN was when I was doing full time, full speed, was 120 to 140 hours a week. You know, and there's two prongs to that, right? So you gotta be able to tolerate the financial change that comes with working not as many hours.
Hesitate to say not as hard, right? You're still busting, hair on fire. But, there's also that aspect where if every physician [00:10:00] worked, let's say they cut down about 50% time- Right ... how do we see all the patients that we need to see? The ERs, you know this as better than anybody else- Sure
ERs are busting in some places.
Yeah. Not everybody can do it , So you still have to have people who are going in at the full-time, you know, the full allotment. The FTE- Mm-hmm ... you know, full-time equivalent, 100%. So yeah.
how do we keep those folks, those full bore working their tails off, how do we keep them on the front lines?
And, you know, let's give them a ton of credit. Those are the people that really wanna be there, right? "Look, I came to medicine to be a clinician. This is what I'm gonna do and this is what I was born to do." How do we keep them on the front lines working well, working with high quality without burning them out?
Yeah, I mean, as a director, like, as the leader, you do everything that you can. Like, you take away as much of the administrative hassles as you can. You give them the tools to operate effectively and efficiently. You fight [00:11:00] with your, hospital leadership or whoever it is that, signs the paychecks to pay them well.
Like, fair schedule, equitable schedule, vacations. Like, you do everything you can to give these guys, what they deserve for their hard work and time.
Absolutely. and there's a lot of competing priorities with that too when it comes between administration, and clinical.
why would you say, especially ER physicians, this is why you're fantastic to be in this seat here, and I really appreciate it. why do you think that physicians, particularly the ones that are high performers, why are they so good at hiding stress?
I don't know. That's a great question.
I don't know.
You know, that's why we're here. We're trying to ask these questions- Yeah ... and get these answers too. so the I don't knows are perfect because, maybe someone out there has an idea and they'll give us some feedback for it. But, you look at the television shows, you look at the glamour, the glorified physician who, drives a nice car,
you know, I feel like we're supposed to be so good at knowledge. We're supposed to be the smartest person in the room, but you also have to have that emotional intelligence aspect as well.
There's [00:12:00] just so many demands going in professionalism, just medical professionalism- and that need to be perfect at all times. We all kind of put our heads down. I did, you know, getting through medical school and residency. I just put my head down and said, "This is gonna be okay."
I was signing checks, signing loan checks, and just going, "Look, we'll figure this out at the end of the four years andsomething will work. They'll take care of us." But then they kinda don't, so you raise your head from there and you think to yourself I just gotta put my head back down until I get- out from this negative one million." And then everything will be okay, but it feels like every time we're supposed to be okay, the carrot moves or something moves- a little bit farther away from us. When you think of your staff, do you have someone in your mind you can think of right away who's extremely, a high performer, just someone who just gets it done all the time?
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we have a bunch of people like that. I feel like people are comfortable talking about it, I just feel like we've evolved or, developed [00:13:00] as a specialty. Like the, burnout, it's a topic.
Like we all know about it. Wellness, we all know about it. you know, it's in our, podcast. It's in our hospital, the administration's gonna talk about it. And, there's so many outlets for people, I think. There's resources.
I think people know how to access that and know that it's available and can like lean on each other too, mm-hmm. I think we have a cohesive kind of group where people support each other, and I think people would be comfortable coming to me. and so another thing I will say is, we have a residency.
emergency medicine residencyat our place. And so, you know, that's 32 residents, four-year program. And so, like for that there's this infrastructure in place for that whole education mission and like just showing the residents, like being an example and role model and stuff.
And so I think because of that too, another level, so to speak, of, stuff in place for people to feel comfortable to speak out and [00:14:00] share and you know, relate about this stuff.
Yeah, I think that's part of the good news. I think you've touched on a lot of things where having a discussion about it is okay now.
a lot of support is automatically baked into the programs, especially- .. The residency programs . And that's where we really give a shout-out to the residents here at July 1st. Begin the wellness journey at the same time as you begin- Yeah ... your professional career.
and the two should be baked to each other, quite frankly. They should be intertwined. Even if you are, negative one mil, negative 1.5, whatever it is, you know, most residents are coming out of medical school now with, several hundred thousand dollars in debt.
and those numbers are bigger and bigger every year. Here's a shock question, surprise question for you. Have you paid off your student loans yet?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
You have them paid off? Yeah ... yeah, I think I paid them off about six years ago.
So it's a steady, slow process. But and that's part of wellness. what we're gonna do here, not only is discuss wellness in this podcast, but we're also gonna give, a lot of examples and a lot of things that people can do, especially for [00:15:00] financial wellness, to take that aspect out of their stress levels and their wellness issues,
I wish you had this 25 years ago.
Exa- Day late and a dollar short or a decade later, you know? Yeah. Quarter millennia wait, late. Yeah.
Yeah.
not as bad as the Knicks were back a couple weeks ago when they went- Oh, my God ... 53 years. But yeah, and there's a lot of folks out there.
We're certainly not inventing the wheel here. We're hoping that, some of the resources that we have will, hit the nail for a lot of people maybe in a different fashion. maybe we're gonna tell the story a little bit different than somebody else. and maybe it'll hit with somebody, it'll sink in.
You spoke to me a lot, earlier about when you made the switch over and did more administrative type of medicine. Yeah. did that require balancing financially?
yeah, I basically, like the salary remained whole, so like I lost some time, to do the admin stuff. I didn't have to do the clinical, so I got basically paid the same amount and then, some of those hours got switched to admin-related stuff.
[00:16:00] but you also mentioned on the administrative aspect of things that, that it was really about making those connections. So that was what the fulfillment became, was making those connections.
Yeah. for sure. Like, It's good. Like, you know, we all focus on patient care and, working with patients and families and like getting good outcomes for them and like that's what, you know, I think a lot of people often went into this for, and like that's what drives us and sustains us.
But honestly, like doing admin stuff, it's rewarding as well. I mean, you gotta make relationships, you gotta, work with other people, different specialties, different departments, different, competing interests and try to find like the best way forward, you know, in terms of, always take it back to the patient and patient care.
I really like it. It's been great. And it's rewarding. there's day-to-day frustrations, right? but you know, just like anything else, even like on the clinical side, you have day-to-day frustrations. But overall, I think it's been great.
they talk a lot about with depression content and they talk about, [00:17:00] connections. you know, isolation is the big destroyer of depression. ... making those connections is huge. And I love hearing that about your story because I think a lot of folks, particularly in surgery or maybe even late in the ER, just feel like they're out there flapping in the breeze- Yeah
and, and no one's supporting. Yeah. How do you get through to people like that?
Yeah, like I would tell people to like become involved. Like do something. Like maybe if it's just like a committee or, volunteer or whatever, like get to know, somebody. get on a hospital committee where you're working with physicians with a common goal.
You know, like whatever the committee work is or whatever. Like it's not like you're on one side of the phone, they're on the other, you're duking it out about a patient. Like you guys are together trying to solve a problem, , so that's the way I think to, you know, like I said, build connections.
Get to know people outside of like a clinical space where you're trying to do a project or, you know, do something, make improvements together. And I think, that's been great for me. [00:18:00]
Is that a message that you carry through the residency program as well? do you have mentors for the residents like from the get-go?
Yeah, I have two mentees or whatever. But likeI say this to them, like I have, time in front of them quite a bit, like we do, lectures and stuff. And so I say this, you know, get involved, find something that interests you, and just build on that.
I've got a guy that I trained with, and we've been fortunate enough to work with this guy Dr. John Jardine, over my career for... He's been at most of the places that I have been, including working with now. And he got involved in heatstroke, research, and, he's a leading expert for heatstroke and treatment of heatstroke, and so he does a whole s- other side, like half of his job.
He just works half-time for us, you know, like I was saying, and then he does like a other half is like working at a heat lab, giving lectures, doing research, you know, doing all this stuff. find something you like, and it's just, sustains you. and, you'll be fine.
it's not work if you [00:19:00] love it,
yeah. How about those folks who, like you at the very beginning of your career, they just, at 5:00 or 6:00 or 2:00 a.m. when the shift ends, they're like, "I gotta get home to my kids." How do they manage, especially when, hopefully we're talking to some residents, it's July 1st.
How do you get them to balance that when it's like, "Look, I just gotta get home to my kids. I wanna change a diaper. I wanna be involved. I don't want to leave this all to my wife who's potentially giving up her career to work inside the home"?
People have to find their way and their, values and, what, what they want and make their priorities and values and go from there. Like, I can't say. Maybe someone is fine with that. Maybe, the problem that, I talked about at the beginning, maybe that doesn't affect somebody.
They're like, "Yeah, I work five shifts and then I have three days off and I don't care." Yeah. I just, like, hammer it. So, it's just so individualized,
It's a spectrum, right? There's some people who are in it and they're, head first, they're up to their ears and they love it, and there's other people that feel like they're drowning in it, and... It's supposed to be a hard question, so we wanna reach those [00:20:00] people who are at the end of their rope and their, foundation is completely cracked and, "I'm a couple years in, I can't deal."
and those other people like, "This has been the greatest thing since sliced bread." And even those folks, if we can reach them, especially with the financial component that we're hopefully to get into as this first season goes on, we'll create a situation where they can change their work schedules more to fit- Yeah
what their personal values are. Because I think when you get started, and you touched on this very well in the early part of the episode here, which was, "I had mouths to feed, I had a debt to pay and grinding was the way out." Yeah ... and so we've all kind of gotten to that point where if we just work harder it'll be better.
and I don't know that that's always the answer. So that's the other part of that we wanna try and make, is that, working harder isn't necessarily going to be the answer because that solution is not out there necessarily. There's only so hard you can work, right? Yeah. And then there's that remuneration piece where, you know, you could be working your tail off and
It's not gonna [00:21:00] get you the money you thought it was- when those TV docs were driving those fancy cars and stuff.
Yeah, and walking around with their satchels. you're right, but That'd be great if you could provide those resources for people and like if you can, cut back a little bit because of, doing something with the finances or people's finances, and then you can cut back a little bit or even just take whatever gains. So yeah, that's awesome.
That's what we're going for . , And so, you know, as we're kinda coming to the end of the episode, there's a couple things just to ask and really just kind of...
Let's see if we've touched on this. Is there something we're not talking about there and that we should be?
I think you gotta talk about... burnout. Like that's the problem. And, finding ways through,
It's like I imagine you're gonna get the different guests on, people are gonna have different ideas. Like I gave you like how I handled it, but you're gonna hear from other people I imagine. And so hopefully you'll have strategies people have different strategies.
That's the goal, and hopefully I can convince you to come back on here too later and we'll, keep fleshing this out. in your leadership role, where do you see burnout showing up[00:22:00] in the physician's everyday life? Where do you see that happening?
there's the case definition. Like, people feel like they're not connecting with the patients. They feel like, they don't get satisfaction from their work.
You know, they're... might have sleep issues or snap or, professionalism issues or, you know- ... be disruptive or whatever,
and so when you see those things that's when you kinda pull them in and go, what can we do to help?"
Yeah. What can we do to help? Yeah.
That's exactly it.
And you know, without going too deep into personal life too, what does it look like at home when you're completely overwhelmed and, you got responsibilities you wanna fulfill at home? What does it look like or what does it feel like when you get home and you're just like I can't do it right now"?
I've been fortunate to have a very loving and supportive wife who like I said earlier, like she took 10 years of, being with the kids and, taking that on. And so I think, you know, that stability for them, you know, before school and stuff, at their young time, that time in their life was huge.
And she's always been supportive. If I [00:23:00] come home and it's been a bad day or whatever, she'll like, "Go run. Go do this. Take your time," you know, whatever. I'm not expected to kinda just plug myself into the family. Which- I don't take advantage of that.
I don't like, whatever, pull that card or whatever. but if I needed it, I know she would give me some space or whatever. But it's always been... Like, now it's just like all that stuff, it's like a memory. It's like a I don't know.
... we got an empty nest now, and like we're not negative millionaires anymore. Like, everything's
it's good, you know? It's good.
so, you know, so that's the other thing, like you get there.
Like I started out saying like, you know, you don't wanna be... I felt like I was a resident. I felt like I was still working too hard and-
...
I found, you know, I tried to figure out a way out of it. And so I did. But it would have been it's fine. You'll get there. you'll get to the point where your finances are better and you have more time and, you know,
just stick with it and you'll come out the other side, yep. Get burnt out.
I know. I love that. I love the sense of hope ... you know, in a clinician that's been doing this for so long. 'Cause then my [00:24:00] thought process and my concern is for those men and women who are on the front lines, whether they're ER docs or OBs or family, you know, you come home and you're disengaged for a certain period of time, and, you know, your supportive spouse says, "Look, go for a run, take an hour, do this, do that and I'm gonna take the kids over here and do something else."
And then you come back into it and they're into their thing. They're doing a routine and I think it runs the risk of feeling like a crappy parent, like a disengaged parent, sure, I'm feeding them. I tell people all the time, you either some days you either feed your kids or you see your kids.
some days, those are diametrically opposed, so-
Yeah, yeah ...
my concern is for those people who are hitting the burnout and they're feeling like crappy parents, quite frankly, for lack of a better term, at the same time. But I like that vision, that support of hope that you're saying, "Look it's gonna get there."
Yeah.
But you only have a certain amount of time with your kids. you mentioned being an empty nester and, you know, I'm getting relatively close myself and you find that time runs out quickly, Oh,
yeah ...
you know, later in life. So, you know, what can you share with folks who feel like in that first couple years of life and they're completely [00:25:00] overwhelmed and I miss this and I miss that, and,
how do you stay human in that?
Yeah. It's hard. I mean, You just gotta show up and if you can be there, that's half the battle, right? if your work schedule permits you to go to something, you gotta go to it and just put the time in.
And I remember being like after, I don't know, two, three years or whatever my son is the younger and, after he was three or four, I'm like, "Oh my God," I don't have to come home and just get on the floor with the kids.
Like, I was just like, "Oh, we could go like play baseball or we could go run around." Like honestly, when I got off the floor with the kids, that was the time that things started to change.
Right.
But whatever it is, whatever their interest is- Like continue to do stuff with my kids.
I do stuff that like I have a, membership with them at a rock gym, which I don't, you know, so do bouldering and climbing, which I'm not good at it, and I don't really like it, and I'm a little bit scared of heights. so it's like not good for me, but I go with them, and we have a great time, and like they love it.
[00:26:00] And so like see, that's what I'm talking about. Just show up. Just do something.
I love it. You don't have to love getting on the floor, but be there and do what you can for them.
Just show up. Be there.
Right. Right? Yep. You spend enough time grinding on a mat, wrestling mats, so being on the floor-
is probably not that much fun, but be present for what you can be present for and- Yeah ... drop the guilt for the things that- just don't, 'cause it doesn't serve you. It doesn't serve your sense of burnout. Probably doesn't serve your family either, so I like that distinction.
No, I like that.
Yeah, that's well said. Yeah. Good job. Yeah.
Yeah, I went to a, school that taught me well.
Yep. App Guard dictionary.
There you go. Yeah ... kinda wrapping up, I wanna, make. One last point, and then I'm gonna ask you for a takeaway for our listeners today, particular our residents who are starting their day ones, but some of those early career physicians and some of those later career physicians.
So Darren, if you could change something tomorrow to help one person going through burnout, what would it be?
I would try to refocus and reframe it, like, back to [00:27:00] taking care of patients. That's the thing that's sad, like when people lose that or just disinterest or, whatever, moral injury or whatever happens where
It's just not fulfilling anymore.
Mm-hmm.
So That's what I would change. I would like, just stop for a minute and just, like, let all that other stuff melt away and just, like, there and think about, like, how, lucky you are to be able to try to help people and do what we do, and make people feel better in their time of need.
Yeah. that's really well said. I think what I'm hearing too is that, this, to kind of break it down simplified, it's what's your why? Yeah. Why are you here? Why did you do this- Yeah ... and get into it? Yeah. I like your sense of hope. and for those people who are like, "Yeah,
I hear what he's saying, but I'm not going in that direction. This just isn't working." Yeah. Okay. Yeah. then I think Just stick with us. we're gonna be some other episodes on what else you can do to maintain your sanity, maintain your career, keep what you've been working for.
The whole purpose of this is to keep people in the [00:28:00] workforce and keep them sane at the same time, you know, and I think you've, touched on it . Actually, you answered my next question really, but I wanna say it again to you. see what you got. We, end of the episode.
Okay, great. I just spent a half an hour on the episode with these two jokers. And what can we give people to take away from today's program? What action item can we give them? So it sounds like do a deep dive, don't feel bad if you're burnt out and figure out what's your why.
is that basically what people can take away from this first episode?
Yeah, I would say that too. And then You have support. Like, you have people in your group or, your residency class Or wherever you choose. You have support at home.
People love you and people care about you, and you have help and support.
I love that. I love that message and for those people who are listening, there's even, you know, more professional support for those people who are, you know, Lorna Breen Foundation, Dr.
Lorna Breen was an ER physician herself. And so that foundation is fantastic and we're not a paid sponsor, so I just wanna throw that out there too. But, you know, it's a foundation that really works hard on [00:29:00] ending physician suicide. And so there's help literally from your colleagues lunchtime help.
There's people to talk to. believe it or not, the administration really wants people to succeed emotionally. And so if you're not, tell somebody. Tell somebody now, and if you can't tell somebody locally, then go elsewhere to tell somebody. Let somebody know and just be safe out there. it's a hard job.
that was one of the things that it's harder than I thought it was, honestly, to get this far. And then when you had that grind and everybody in front of you, it's really hard. so what we're doing is a extremely hard job. and we really wanna give people the tools to keep them in medicine, successfully, whatever that definition is for them.
Awesome. Yeah. That's great.
Yeah. So thank you, Dr. Darren Gerard, thank you for being with us, and, thanks for being an old friend from WSU and, medical school too. Darren's a big New England guy, so I wore the Red Sox for him.
Thank you.
Go Sox.
Thank you so much. Great to talk to you.
Thanks, Darren.
Thanks for being here.